Ask the community Asking question... Amazon Arts Business Computers Consumer Electronics Education & Reference Entertainment Environment Family Food & Drink Games & Leisure Health Home Lifestyle Local Miscellaneous Pets Politics & Law Science Society Sports & Recreation Transportation Search categories: Sign up | Sign in where can I find baseball caps from movies ? arcano28 arcano28 Loading stats... Loading awards... Sign in and you can: Private message Become a friend Follow where can I find baseball caps from movies ? Asked by arcano28 30 months ago Similar questions: find baseball caps movies Entertainment > Movies Answer arcano28's question Answers Answer from newuser10504783 I found the key is not searching for baseball caps, but movie props, costumes and memorabilia Buy searching for movie props, costumes and memorabilia I found a number a websites that specialize in those products. The link http://www.premiereprops.com/ was an interesting site, but a "key word" search frequently turned up nothing, even though was able to find a baseball cap by searching a movie title in which a character wore a cap. The URL I listed above (http://www.hollywoodparts.com/) was included because it offers a "prop hunter" function that the purchaser can identify a specific item they are seeking and the company will search for it for you and notify you by e-mail what they have located. Of course, there is also a specific "Entertainment Momorabilia" category on Ebay, but when I did a search for baseball caps and baseball I got replica and/or promotional products. One final note, it would appear that one would have to be prepared to pay $300 for costume/prop hat from a movie. Good luck Sources: http://www.hollywoodparts.com/ Sign in to report abuse or send a compliment newuser10504783 30 months ago Please sign in to give a compliment. Please verify your account to give a compliment. Please sign in to send a message. Please verify your account to send a message. newuser10504783 newuser10504783 Loading stats... Loading awards... Sign in and you can: Private message Become a friend Follow Related questions "How do I go about getting movies that are not on dvd yet?" (3 answers) "ASK FOR RECOMMENDATIONS OF MOVIES...." (5 answers) "What are some good "family" movies?" (5 answers) "Will You Still Go To The Movies?" (1 answer) "What are some good scary movies?" (4 answers) "Best movies of 2006?" (2 answers) "New Movies" (4 answers) "What is one of the best movies out now?" (5 answers) "MOVIES" (1 answer) "What are some must-see movies that aren't entirely well known?" 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"Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), It's About The Horse Forum Index -> Horse General Chat Jewil Parelli and Helmets FHOTD Topic I just happened over to catch up on the blog since it has moved to WordPress and the first thing I see is something else negative about Parelli. I know she hates Parelli and most of it is a load of crap but this one struck me different. I actually agree with her post. The short story is someone wrote the Parelli camp about Linda not wearing a helmet when jumping and their response was absolutely ridiculous. Go read it ( at fuglyblog.com) tell me what your opinion is. I do not personally wear a helmet when I ride my horses but I do when starting a new horse or riding one I don't know. After Linda's accident I am really considering buying a nice one. 4theloveofjake Oh my ! Well as blunt and wild and outspoken as she is, I have to agree with her on that one. Their stance is cookoo because there is no bombproof, safe horse who you could never get hurt on. Period. To wear a helmet is a personal choice but to say that Parelli makes them sooooo safe that you could never, ever get hurt, well, that's pushing it. I may look like a sweaty, messy freak but my helmet gets plenty of use ! Jewil Yeah it is nuts to say that. I wonder if the letter was written before or after Linda's fall. Obviously it's not just the horse's fault when Remmer fell with Linda. 4theloveofjake They seem easy targets at times, don't they ? ALOT of people get pissy about riding in rope halters but until I have a problems with it personally I will keep riding in them. So far, have had no problems with control. As Parelli students or former students what is your take on that ? Playenatural I was wondering if anyone else had saw that. Yes for once I agree with her. And I still wear my helmet despite 7 years of Parelli. calatar Makes NO sense, how do they account for things like Linda's recent freak accident. ElaineW I have not read this fugly blog in a long time.. This time though I agree with her 100%.   I will not ride with out a helmet. you never know what will happen. Shit happens,, and I wear a skid lid.. My kids wear helmets when they ride. And for the person responding to the question to say that PNH completely fixes a horse so you will NEVER have to worry is a crock of shit.. straight up. misstux Linda Cowles, a well respected barefoot trimmer who used to trim Dusty, lost a good friend of hers who went for a solo ride on her old broke horse without wearing a helmet. cheerios I went though a phase for a year or two where I didn't usually wear a helmet. See user picture... (Thankfully, no really serious falls during that time). Occasionally, I'll hop on an old horse with out a helmet for a bit of light riding. But I always wear a helmet now for green horses, solo riding, horses I don't know, any gait higher than a walk, etc. (Basically, almost all the time.) I've fallen on my head a few times, and can say the helmet probably saved me from serious injury. Bad headaches, but nothing worse. No horse is 100% push-button bomb-proof. And no rider is 100% perfect. I've fallen off a few very well behaved lesson horses after making stupid little mistakes. ElaineC It'll be interesting to see if they change their stance on helmets after Linda got dumped on her head. They'll have to slide it in slowly somehow, otherwise they'll seem like huge hypocrites. Its such a stupid thing to dig in over too - if you are an adult and don't wear a helmet, well, thats your choice. But to encourage not wearing a helmet, in even a backwards way, is just wrong. So, does that mean when Linda wound up in the hospital with a concussion and broken ribs, that she, a Level 6 n all that, didn't read her horse correctly? That it wasn't worked properly before she got on? That it wasn't safe in the first place? Oh please. Linda is a mediocre rider at best, and a very fearful one. I suspect she is the one who was using a helmet as a mental crutch, and is now pushing that on others. Personally, I would never get on without a helmet. Its a long way down, I've already had 3 major head injuries (not from falling off horses, but horse related), I don't need to take any risks at this point in my life. cynthia peterson Odd, I have never seen the Frugy blog before! Interesting... And I found out on there somethings (like the Arab horses  and Boggs boys still in trouble) Yikes, in the "old" times, only the "insiders" knew these things while the masses were being fleeced! Linda and the helmet. No, she is still not using one. Reports at the Gold Conference recently, and people at the Colorado Center have reported she is not. Too bad, it would have been a good time to introduce a new Parelli Helmet... I started wearing a helmet about 5 years ago. Oddly enough the only time I should have been using it was on the ground doing some close beside the horse hand work. I was in front of the barn and my husband came roaring in with his truck around the corner and the horse shied and ran over me. At least that is what my husband tells me, as the horse knocked me out cold. And this was the kindest, sanest horse in the world. Things just happen. Years ago a women in our dressage club got thrown against the barn hallway stalls while leading the horse. She was killed just like that. Maybe we should consider wearing that helmet on the ground too. bit Thing is, when you fall with your helmet and it is impacted, the integrity of the helmet is compromised.  We urged our ski team kids to buy new helmets every year, and NEVER purchase a used one.  Your head is much the same.  Once you bang it good, it's much worse to bang it again.  There was a couple of kids on our soccer team that had to quit playing because of too many concussions.  If Linda hits her head again, she may not be so lucky.   I don't know, with old age, my memory is getting worse and worse.  I wear a helmet because I don't need to accelerate mother natures process of old timers!  Plus, I don't want to live out my life as less than I am because I've hit my head.  I hate wearing a helmet, but I wear them.   Linda should be a living example of safety on a horse.  I think her hair is more important than her life, at this point.  I can see the law suit, now.  Someone dies because they aren't wearing a helmet, and sues Parelli because they said a helmet wasn't necessary. edited to add: well I read the letter and was PISSED! So I wrote my last letter to Parelli. Here it is. I'm done. I have defended and practiced Parelli since 2003. Great foundation program, and great healing therapy for the human. The changes in the human are as dramatic as the changes in the horse. I was disappointed to see how Parelli became more about the money, not so much about the horse. Sorry, but ya'll know this, already. You've lost a lot of good people because of this. I could not believe my eyes when I saw this letter out of your faculty. To say this is a law suit waiting to happen is an understatement. To say it is coming from a very large ego, obvious. It also mentions the savvy level of the rider? Have you addressed Linda's unsafe behavior? Oh, and that would mean, as a professional driver, I can now go without my seat belt? I've seen Pat get dragged, and Linda struggle with Allure, just trying to lead him to the arena. KC? I know Remmer was NEVER dangerous. Yes, I know the truth on that one, and yet I have seen that perfectly calm, lbi run away with Linda. No horse is totally safe, and you can't get savvy enough to prevent an accident on a horse. To say you can, through Parellli? Are you kidding me? This letter to Patty reminds me of the tobacco companies proclaiming that cigarettes will not kill you. You just need a high level of savvy to smoke them?!! This is embarrassing, folks. I can't defend Parelli when you put out this kind of message. You are wrong, and there will be injuries and possibly deaths because of your message. Are ya'll doing so well with the gold memberships that you can afford the lawsuit that will result from comments like this? Disappointed, Deb Johnson Hi Patti, Thank you for taking the time to write us. We understand your views and concerns. As quoted by the faculty at our ranch: “You are quite right – helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses.? Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse - rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences. The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people that rather than be brave because they are wearing a a helmet to protect them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely. People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways. We hope this helps, From the Faculty, Parelli Centers oldmac_donald *thinks* You know, after all my "I don't wear a helmet! I don't wear a helmet!"... I wear a helmet. Right now, you won't catch me wagging fingers and saying "you should NEVER get on a horse without one", because I would still ride without one at times. I don't really like the cotton-wooling and the "OMG! *gasp* where is your helmet?!" that occurs. I still very much think it is a decision that you make as an adult, and you accept the consequences. Right now, my horse is on agistment at a mate's, and out of respect for her, I wear a helmet. It doesn't bother me, and besides, I am enjoying riding out with my girl, who is a fruitcake so I would probably wear one anyway!! What I DON'T agree with is Parelli's stance on the helmet issue. I mean, FFS, that letter on the blog is outrageous. Even after Linda's accident - what were they smoking at the time. I don't like being made to feel that I am stupid for wearing one. Jumping, I think, deserve a helmet, no matter who you are. Especially jumping bloody tables bareback with a crowd around. I REALLY don't like the way that ... hmm, the more nervous novices, who spent 90% of their time on the ground "playing" with their horses because they ARE nervous and ARE novice, then aren't encouraged to wear a skull cap. It's like the program is making people afraid (you're boring your horse, your horse doesn't like you, your horse is unsafe to ride, your horse won't cross X thresholds) AND stupid (the horse is calm, it's now OK to not wear a helmet, even though this horse was once a manic OTTB and ate stablegrooms for breakfast...) Nothing against nervous novices here at all, my point was that certain demographics (riders and riders-of-certain-horses) should be encouraged to wear one for their own safety and confidence. Kids should wear a helmet, certainly. Green riders, riders with balance issues, riders with green or difficult horses - just give them encouragement to wear a helmet. Ray Hunt did! He told people who wore helmets that they were the smart ones, and that there was no shame in it. Why can't Pat and Linda do that, instead of spruiking about how good they are, and that THEY don't need one - the rest of you plebs, do what you like, but WE don't need one!! Funny, now that I've cut my ties with PPPPat and Linda, I've gone back to the helmet quite happily. Besides, it's a gorgeous black hunt cap type one, very swank. I hope I haven't offended anyone, not my intention at all. I quite happy for people to wear or not to wear a helmet, but I don't like the fact that people are not made to feel encouraged to wear one in the program, especially in the lower levels, and as many people get into the program as they have horse-problems. EcstaticLady I've never seen that blog before but I do agree. After the July (?) DVD came out (with people standing on their horses while trotting) with no helmets I wrote a letter to Parelli - still waiting for a response - urging them to change their stance on helmets. That DVD came out right after Linda's accident. What a perfect opportunity! But no, they're still pushing that same stupid "savvy = safe" line of BS. I'll admit it, until recently I didn't always wear my helmet and I took a brain jarring fall. And it wasn't because my horse is "unsafe" or I'm incapable of riding her. We were at the end of a 4 hour ride and I was probably not paying as much attention as I should have been, she spooked, spun and I came off. In my defense it probably wouldn't have happened if I'd been in a western saddle. My point is the same as everyone else - there's no such thing as a bombproof horse. Something at some time is going to cause that "perfect" horse to have a bad day. Or, in the case of Linda, it's going to trip and fall or step in a hole or the rider's balance will be off, etc, etc. They "say" they're promoting safety, isn't a helmet the first obvious step? Dawn & Lady sarah I have seen FHOTD before, and, while I have not read this post in particular, I can imagine how informed a view it will be. As for helmets, I have one life. I can fix a broken arm, cracked ribs will heal, but my brain is as good as it gets right now. I have four children, a husband, animals to care for and many things in my life that I value. I would not jump out of a plane without a parachute and I wouldn't ride without a helmet. It is an insurance policy. The Parellis say that helmets are optional. It's true - we all have a choice - but I think it is irresponsible to say that horses can ever be completely and utterly safe. My children only ride with helmets on. They have no choice at this point. When they are older, I hope that I have guided them well enough for them to make an informed decision, whatever they choose to do. My daughter has the coolest, calmest customer on four legs - not much phases him - but when two German Shepherds ran at him growling and snapping (they belonged to a local police officer who let them loose in front of two horses and two hundred cattle ) he took off. My daughter was wearing her helmet, in the process of getting away from the dogs, she came off and hehorse kicked her in the shoulder. If it had been another 4 inches to the right it would have been her head. And the whole thing was pretty calm in terms of horse accidents. Helmets are daggy. But you only have one brain, and I think it's wise to protect it. Daggy won't seem important if you are injured, or worse still, dead. sarah Actually, I must say that I have trouble picking a fault in FHOTD's theory this time. Other things she writes make my toes curl, but I think she has a point. Credit where it's due. LiveLaughLove sarah wrote: Actually, I must say that I have trouble picking a fault in FHOTD's theory this time. Other things she writes make my toes curl, but I think she has a point. Credit where it's due. Agreed. Boy, that Faculty letter makes me wonder what's in the air/water at the centres. To know of all the people my age and younger who idolise the Parelli's and think along the lines of "I'm obviously not Savvy enough if I have to wear a helmet whilst on my horse" makes me feel sick! Even on my wonderful Saffy who you'd have to try really hard to come off of, you'd see me riding around doing cartwheels on her back whilst letting off fireworks before you caught me without a helmet on. Anyone who chooses not to wear a helmet is free to do so in my opinion but Savvy = safe? Give me a break, that's atleast half a ton of prey animal you're dealing with! Nashama Oh my! Maybe I should get the bits I want out of the SC now and run. Any competent instructor should work from the premise that all beginner riders will fall off and should wear head protection until they are not beginners. As a former riding instructor, I would assess in Parelli-land, that's all L1 & L2 riders. Having watched the L3's unable to do basic balance exercises I was teaching in pony club, quite a few of them, too, should not be out without a helmet. It blew my mind they could not do exercises I was doing at 14 and teaching to children at 25. With OldMac, here - what are they smokin' in Colorado/Florida? barnelda I've only ever wore a helmet once at a friends playday.I have thought about buying one a few times but never did.Now that I'm older it does make more sense to wear one. oldmac_donald Has this topic invaded the SC forum yet? I have no access. The topic, either from the OP or from the Fugly blog, seems to be on every single bulletin board. Most people are outraged. Parelli needs to fire their PR person for being publicly unsavvy... cynthia peterson The "Parelli Helmet" letter is now running on two respected Dressage Forums too. And they are having a real discussion on Parelli's reasoning too. There was also a question of that recent RFDTV show where Pat gives a very physically challenged girl with balance problems a lesson, without a helmet (who most certainly needed one). They were also concerned about Parelli being sued. In fact, there was a question of this even was a real letter from Paelli.com or just circulating around to bash Parelli and make them look bad. It is indeed a real letter from Parelli. Those of us that have been Parelli followers knew we have heard the same defense before from Linda on helmets. And yes, those who have seen Linda ride agian after the accident noticed she still doesn't wear one. oldmac_donald Hey! Is that the UD forum? Because if so, I just found it and am reading the thread as we speak. Oh, OTT, but you should of gotten a little package in the mail by now... Jewil Wow, I have been away from the computer this weekend and this topic has spread like wildfire! At least it confirms my opinion. Surely it will be addressed? Bit~ when did you write your letter and receive your response? babs bit wrote: Hi Patti, Thank you for taking the time to write us. We understand your views and concerns. As quoted by the faculty at our ranch: “You are quite right – helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses.? Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse - rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences. The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people that rather than be brave because they are wearing a a helmet to protect them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely. People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways. We hope this helps, From the Faculty, Parelli Centers This response from Parelli is illogical to me, but by no means surprising. Horse back riding is inherently dangerous and there as there is no insurance against that freak accident, helmets are advisable. My helmet gives me absolutely no false confidence and in no way encourages me to behave in unsafe ways. cory Haven't been to the UD site to read their comments on the letter. But if they are criticizing riders with no helmets, ever been to a dressage show? Who wears helmets at dressage shows? They wear those top hats - no protection there. Although I think the letter is a bit assinine, I personally feel helmets should be optional for adults. Sometimes I wear one, sometimes I don't. I enjoy my freedom to choose. bit Never got any response, but they probably haven't gotten to it yet. lol, I'm sure they are digging through many letters. I was not happy with the corp, but this letter was my defining moment in time. You know, you are in a relationship, it's not a good thing, you love him, but he finally does something so damn bad that you just know, in a single moment of time, you are done? I know there are a lot of good things with Parelli training, but I look at this and think, if this is one of their truths, then what about the rest? Like I said on another thread, water hole rituals and clicker training, for me. I might look into Buck or probably Larry Whitesall (my horse is gaited), but no more Parelli. I'm done. Eclipse knows all this stuff, and I see no reason to drill the heck out of her. Regarding helmets, I do wear one. Every lesson I have ever taken, required one to ride, since 1971. It really is like a safety belt. Yep, you can still die, but it also saves lives, and they still can't fix a brain injury. I guess that makes all of you my rebound relationship? Only I LOVE you all, and I think you all just may be "the one"! Thank God for all of you. oldmac_donald Ok, I had a pretty bad fall a couple of years ago - and YES, I was "doing Parelli" at the time, and thought I was Pat himself, and misjudged my horse. I woke up as I was being bundled into an ambulance, having been found by my mother unconscious in the paddock. I never EVER what to put her through that again - I can't imagine how she felt. Anyway, I was concussed but had no damage to my brain and was sent home (lack of hospital beds). The ambo was still giving me stick about the incident three years on. Anyway, the hospital advised my mother (I was airheading in the corner, feeling very ill) that under no circumstance was I to obtain another head injury for two years. Apparently this is standard with concussion. The closer together injuries are, the worse the second one. Takes your brain a long time to recover, or something. Anyway. Mine was a minor fall, horse bucked at a halt. Linda's was NOT a minor fall. My horse was 15.1hh, Rem is not. Linda's was at speed. If nothing else, Linda really ought to wear a helmet as standard post-concussion practice. It's a bit like breaking your arm, and going back to weightlifting within two weeks because it no longer hurts. No, it doesn't hurt but the injury is still there. If she gets even a minor whack to the head, she could be seriously injured. This IMHO is bad practice. Have they even acknowledged that "yes, even Linda falls off" and that accidents happen? No. Hell, I wouldn't get on Allure without one, yet she happily brags about the times he's dropped her on her nut. Yep, clever move there Linda. This has NEVER been addressed by Parelli. I mean, freedom to choose is great! But at least acknowledge that your major audience is NOT comprised of natural riders or bull riders or cowboys, but novices, nervous nellies, and non-professionals with simply not the saddle-time to develop the reactions and instincts of someone who rides professionally for hours every day. They should NOT be dis-encouraging people from wearing helmets. Most horse DVDs I get these days have "do not imitate" disclaimers, even training ones. Pat and Linda say "imitate us!" and "we don't need to wear helmets". Should be "we don't wear them, but we are professionals blah blah blah". FFS, even Ray Hunt says he gives helmet-wearers a tick of approval for being smart. becdubie Is everyone  missing this part of the letter? Quote: “You are quite right – helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses.? I have never received a message from parelli that I should NOT wear a helmet, in fact I do wear one because I know how unbalanced I am.  I wear them at Parelli clinics...noone has ever said..."hey take that helmet off it won't keep you safe"  The message I have always got was simply... "Helmets protect your head and are a good choice if you want to wear one, but a helmet alone will not keep you safe" How about Mr Buck Brannaman?????   Ever see him wear a helmet? Clinton Anderson? Any of the other NH?   Does anyone know of well known Natural trainer that sells or endorses a helmet? I don't know so that's why I'm asking. Jewil No I am not sure of other natural trainers on their feelings of helmets. Jewil becdubie wrote: Is everyone  missing this part of the letter? Quote: “You are quite right – helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses.? I have never received a message from parelli that I should NOT wear a helmet, in fact I do wear one because I know how unbalanced I am.  I wear them at Parelli clinics...noone has ever said..."hey take that helmet off it won't keep you safe"  The message I have always got was simply... "Helmets protect your head and are a good choice if you want to wear one, but a helmet alone will not keep you safe" Read the rest of the letter Quote: Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse - rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences. The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people that rather than be brave because they are wearing a a helmet to protect them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely. People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways. There is no way you can predict an animal, no matter how well trained or what level, they are called accidents for a reason. I think that is what gets to me about this letter. ElaineC All of Buck Brannaman's kids wear helmets when riding. Multiple photos in his books show them with head protection on. becdubie Yup...I read the entire letter and it is just one letter....All the helmets in the world alone will not keep a person safe around a horse.     I think that in the parelli world, it's more about reading the horse than any one piece of safety gear that can keep one safe.   They do not say NO NOT wear a helmet...they simply say....wear it if you feel you need it but please don't rely on a helmet to be the only thing that keeps you safe.   ..Thats all.... and Buck himself chooses not to wear a helmet correct? bit Nope, never seen a high profile trainer use a helmet. I don't care if they do or don't. This isn't about that. Let's not get away from topic. This letter is telling students that if they have enough savvy, and their horse is properly trained, they won't need one. That is sending a message, and there are a lot of people out there that take what the Parelli's say as gospel. I see what they are trying to say, but I also see how a lot of folks will believe that a helmet is not necessary at some point in time. That's why I have a problem with it. becdubie Cuz I love a good debate. Adults can make the decision....just like most of the professionals you see out there, not just Pat and Linda Parelli, I realize that many on this forum don't like Parelli, but take a look at the other professionals you look to.....I can't think of anyone who actually endorses or wears a helmet him/herself.... This is posted at the savvy club. Question: Why don't Pat and Linda wear helmets? What is their view on this topic? Answer: LINDA: Personally speaking we feel very uncomfortable wearing helmets because it affects our balance and perceptiveness. Pat wears his cowboy hat and I would wear a helmet if I engaged in extreme sports such as high jumps or eventing. As far as our students are concerned, we are 'pro choice', meaning we respect their choice to wear one or not, and we put a lot of emphasis on safety through savvy. Many people are accidents waiting to happen. I think about what I used to do before meeting Pat and starting the Parelli program, I was one of those. I didn't have a clue and I should have been wearing a helmet because it was just a matter of time before I was going to hit the ground! I was getting on a dangerous horse every day, one who was mentally, emotionally and physically out of control. He didn't trust me and reacted badly to all kinds of situations. I wasn't even safe on the ground! I made bad decisions because I did not understand the horse's nature and especially because I didn't know how to get him to be calm and left brain. Many people climb on horses who are right brain and acting like prey animals, or who have the propensity to do so in even mildly alarming situations. They put on helmets and mount up, thinking they are safe, and they try to stay on no matter what. Helmets do not keep people safe. We don't get on unsafe horses. We put a lot of time into preparation. We get off immediately the situation becomes unsafe. Most riders don't do any of that, but it's what we practice religiously and teach our students to do too. This is the example we set and the one we want them to follow. oldmac_donald Don't forget that Buck's first wife has permanent brain damage from a riding accident where neither horse nor rider where at fault. He described her as a brilliant rider who used to ride with him during his work. Jewil I could care less if Pat or Linda wear a helmet, I just do not like the letter that was sent. They seem like total hypocrites. Mostly because Linda just had a bad accident that was not the horses fault or hers (other than a bad hoof job). coveredbridgefarm Let's break this letter down and see where PNH is getting into trouble with it. “You are quite right – helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses.? I don't see anything wrong with that paragraph.  That's all true. Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse - rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences. That's still basically all true, I would say.  Addressing unsafe behavior on the ground is a good idea and PNH generally does that. The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people that rather than be brave because they are wearing a helmet to protect them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely. Here is where I think they start to have a problem.  Whether intentional or not, they seem to be implying that it's an either/or proposition.  Either ride safely by properly preparing your horse on the ground and then ride without a helmet, or ride unsafely and with false bravado in a helmet.  There is a  third option:  Prepare you horse on the ground AND wear a helmet.  It wouldn't hurt them to mention the third option. People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways. Once again, an either/or perspective without adding that the strategy of addressing safety issues on the ground PLUS wearing a helmet is a viable strategy.  They also seem to be implying that their ground game is so effective that all safety issues can be eliminated, which, of course, isn't true.   Maybe it's just a poorly written letter.  I would definitely say that it is bad PR especially coming so soon after Linda's accident.  And Linda not wearing a helmet so soon after her concussion just adds to it.  Would they send out this message intentionally?  I wouldn't think so, but then I wouldn't think Linda would be riding without a helmet right now either.   Larry Mandy'sMarty coveredbridgefarm wrote: Maybe it's just a poorly written letter.  I would definitely say that it is bad PR especially coming so soon after Linda's accident.  And Linda not wearing a helmet so soon after her concussion just adds to it.  Would they send out this message intentionally?  I wouldn't think so, but then I wouldn't think Linda would be riding without a helmet right now either.   Larry I tend to agree with Larry. Perhaps Parelli Corp. needs more attention to public relations and customer relations...and the big picture it paints. I think a spin doctor is needed. This letter and its timing represent a great PR opportunity squandered and the remaining message is unfortunate at best. bit Me too! Me too! What I wish Parelli would have said...People get hurt on horses all the time. Just because you wear a helmet, it doesn't mean you are safe. We want you to be safe, and your horse to be safe. We'll teach you how to do that. We don't chose to wear helmets and are exercising our personal right to choose. This is why we don't...balance and perception. The decision to wear a helmet, or not, is yours." See? That's about personal accountability. Theirs, and ours. How'd I do? Jewil Very well said Bit! happycat Gismo It all boils down to choice..... I dont wear one, but its not because Pat or Linda say I need to or not. Its because I CHOOSE not to ....... cynthia peterson Linda P. said Pat and Linda do not wear a helmet because it effects thier balance and perceptiveness. I have never heard that excuse?! Balance?, what, the helmet is too heavy? Linda did wear a helmet at least in that first Clinic with Pat. I do remember Pat telling how she went back to the trailer for her "crash cap" on her RB horse for the afternoon class. So, maybe Pat influenced her not to. This is the Pat, who said he rode Bareback broncs "until his brains came in" Yes, OLMac, I do remember that tragic accident in Buck's book. It is true, a Clinician should look like someone who couldn't get hurt. In fact, the fact a clinician did get hurt would certainly not bode well as to thier method working. That is just human Nature. We are not disputing that Parelli has the right to wear or not wear helmets, or anyone else. We are just the sanity of the letter. havingfun Just watched Karen Rolf's new DVD and her students were wearing helmets while riding. She doesn't in the DVDs. Like it's already been said, it's a personal choice and I choose to protect my brain because I care too much about my loved ones to allow myself to be brain injured. Oops, that may be too late. Ok, more brain injured. PasoBaby_CarolU I find wearing a helmet to a be a personal choice also. I wear them with green horses, spring-wild horses, when riding in dense trees, and when riding strange horses. To be honest, I don't like any kind of hat. But, I find it irresponsible to not REQUIRE them on children and new riders. I know one family who even uses them for ground work after their 16 year old was knocked over and stepped on by a young horse. She missed nearly a year of school recovering. I disagree with some of the language in the letter. Like saying it's OK to not wear a seatbelt because people die who wear them too. Also, saying that horses can be perfectly safe if trained correctly. They can't, as you see with Remmer's and Linda's accident. You look at Parelli's mass-marketing blitz. He made "natural horsemanship" the COOL thing to do. They could just as easily make wearing helmets COOL too, and save hundreds of lives. Jewil PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: You look at Parelli's mass-marketing blitz.  He made "natural horsemanship" the COOL thing to do.    They could just as easily make wearing helmets COOL too, and save hundreds of lives. And make a ton of money by putting a Parelli sticker on it! bit I was going to use that same quote of Carol's, Jewel! So true. We required the kids on ski team to wear helmets. Because those kids were seen as "cool", helmet wear went ski high with kids on the mountain. Our rental shop had to start making them available to rent, and then the kids started demanding their parents wear them, too. It has to start somewhere. Parelli sure missed the marketing train on this one. I bet Pat could sell that damn cowboy hat helmet, even. I didn't like wearing a helmet when I skied, (but I did), because yes, it did mess with perception (can't hear as well, can't hear other skiers coming up behind, either) and that does mess with you balance. You get used to it. I don't like how the seat belt always sits on my neck, but I deal with it. Not crazy about sunscreen, or having to wear a hat when I go outside, but it's better than skin cancer. I bet driving would be more fun with a couple of cocktails...We do what we feel is necessary to stay alive. As I get older, and believe me, every new years eve I am astounded that I made it another year because people my age are dropping of natural causes...anyhoo, as I get older, I realize I need to take every precaution I can to stay alive. People die every day of the stupidist things! There's even a t.v. show about it, 1000 ways to die. I sure don't want to make that show because I didn't wear my helmet and ended up as a post turtle. lol, I'd never live it down!!!!!!!!!!! Pyrgirl Going to weigh in on this topic after holding my peace for a long time. I recently had a horrible horse accident. It was in no way the horse's fault - he did nothing at all wrong. It wasn't even my "fault". I was a late beginner to horseback riding - started at age 47. The learning curve for something athletic at a later age is pretty steep. We were doing well and I was having the time of my life. Then during one uneventful ride, I lost my balance and couldn't regain it. I simply fell off. Unfortunately I landed on my wrist. It was twisted out at a 90 degree angle and the bones were broken in two places and shattered. Since I am a pianist by profession, this was devastating in more ways than one. I did have my helmet on. I did also hit my head. I avoid thinking about what might have happened without the helmet. Was my horse safe? Yes. Was I doing everything possible to be safe as a "learning" rider? Yes. Did it happen anyway? Yes. Would it have been worse without the helmet? Yes. The helmet is one way to possibly possibly avoid a horrible accident or make it less than it could have been. I think it is irresponsible for the Parellis to say that you can be totally safe without a helmet. You can't even be safe with the helmet, but it adds an extra margin of protection. As role models, I wish they would take the high road and go against the flow of riding without a helmet. Change the world for horses, and change the world for riders, too. Just my opinion and experience and not meant to put down those with other ideas. Jewil I have the same thing, every birthday it seems my sense of self preservation goes higher and higher... I require the kiddo's that come out to wear a helmet and my nephews of course. And I wear one if I get on someone elses horse or a horse I am working. I too had a bad accident several years ago and broke my ribs. I was on a horse that was blind in one eye and he spooked and stepped sideways and into hotwire, shocked us both and I had a death grip on the reins. This pulled him into me when I fell and he stepped on me. I had minor concussion even with my helmet on. Edit~ I can't imagine how bad it would have been without a helmet. And you better believe I will be wearing one when I start a 2 and a half year old stallion next year! coveredbridgefarm Carol wrote: Quote: You look at Parelli's mass-marketing blitz. He made "natural horsemanship" the COOL thing to do. They could just as easily make wearing helmets COOL too, and save hundreds of lives. So why do you think they didn't promote helmets(asking everyone here---not just Carol)? Why don't other NH clinicians promote them? Larry Jewil coveredbridgefarm wrote: Carol wrote: Quote: You look at Parelli's mass-marketing blitz.  He made "natural horsemanship" the COOL thing to do.    They could just as easily make wearing helmets COOL too, and save hundreds of lives. So why do you think they didn't promote helmets(asking everyone here---not just Carol)? Why don't other NH clinicians promote them? Larry I wonder the same thing! becdubie Quote: So why do you think they didn't promote helmets(asking everyone here---not just Carol)? I'm thinking because..... Safety is not about just wearing a helmet. Yes it is one piece, but w/out everything else that is taught by our favorite NH clinicians, wearing a helmet doesn't mean as much. And for me that is the message I get from Pat and Linda. A helmet can give someone a false sense of security. Pyrgirl becdubie wrote: Quote: So why do you think they didn't promote helmets(asking everyone here---not just Carol)? I'm thinking because..... Safety is not about just wearing a helmet.  Yes it is one piece, but w/out everything else that is taught by our favorite NH clinicians, wearing a helmet doesn't mean as much.   And for me that is the message I get from Pat and Linda.    A helmet can give someone a false sense of security. I think you are right that this is their line of reasoning. I find it to be insufficient reason to avoid the helmet altogether. Just because some people might become overconfident with a helmet on doesn't mean the helmet has no real purpose. It can still keep people alive in situations that do not involve overconfidence. Horse activities are dangerous. Every possible means to achieving safety including getting your horse safe on the ground and wearing a helmet should be employed. bit Right on Patty! My seat belt doesn't give me a false sense of security. I think it is about how you think about it. I don't drive faster or take more chances because I am wearing it. Same with horses. I ride like I ride, and I wear a helmet just in case something happens (it would with or without the helmet) and it hopefully gives me a better chance of survival. Just like a seat belt. LibertyBelle Haha I have to say Parelli's response to Patti made me laugh. False sense of confidence from a helmet? I think not. I spent precious birthday money on a new, really nice helmet 2 years ago. I love my helmet, and you had better believe the last thing I'm going to do is ride a dangerous horse just because "I have my helmet on"... I'm broke. I don't have money for a new helmet! I have fallen once since I got my new helmet, and I made a conscious effort to land anywhere BUT my head so I wouldn't have to get a new helmet. I ended up with a cracked tailbone. Ouch. My helmet is still intact though so I would have to say it was worth it. Anyways. I won't lie. I don't ALWAYS wear my helmet. There's always that ride where I don't feel like going inside to get my helmet (yes, I'm so worried about something happening to it that I keep it in my room), and I ride without. But after going though a head injury due to falling off a horse without a helmet, and all that went along with that, I always think long an hard before getting on without a helmet. Head injuries aren't fun. Knowing I was ambulanced 2 1/2 hours away from home and not even getting to remember it really sucks.. I mean.. if you are going to go on an ambulance might as well remember it, right? But nope. I don't remember anything from that entire day or night. What friends tell me or pics that spark about 5 minutes of my memory is all I have. I wasn't riding my horse, I was riding my friend's horse. He was a horse I had known for years and ridden countless times. He had been a problem horse in the past, but she was now teaching riding lessons on him to little kids, and he was fantastic. He tripped, lost his balance, did a little buck/leap/weird thing to recover, I lost my balance, did a face plant, and an hour later couldn't even recognize my mom. But at the time I was going through my "Parelli is holy" phase, and Pat and Linda didn't wear helmets, so why should I? Right? Yeah. So much for that idea. Too bad Pat and Linda are so blind they can't see that they are putting people (especially influencable young people) in danger. It's so sad. -Carolyn happycat ladycfp I keep telling my daughter I have GOT to stop sending these people over $100 month just so you can get a 100 page report that holds all the keys to your pony's secret thoughts. I am such a wh$#e for Parelli. It's not that they are perceived by some as role models and don't wear helmets. It's that they are saying, you too can learn what we've learned about not needing one. (sorry about starting a thread about this before I saw this one. think I was able to kill it.) AlythLong Many of the horse fall deaths have been experienced riders on a safe, bombproof pony/horse. You only have to fall off and your head hit the kerbside or a stone......people with brain protect it. I'm afraid this is one instance that I think the complete opposite to P and L!!! Of course the reason you fell off wasn't because the horse wasn't safe - it was because something unexpected happened!!! Hertha I think the Parelli rationale for not advocating the wearing of helmets is total bunkum. It is maybe related to the western riding 'image'. We all know that Americans see 'image' as extremely important, especially the 'tough cowboy image'. I see the same ignorance at our local Western Riding Club. Niek coveredbridgefarm wrote: Carol wrote: Quote: You look at Parelli's mass-marketing blitz.  He made "natural horsemanship" the COOL thing to do.    They could just as easily make wearing helmets COOL too, and save hundreds of lives. So why do you think they didn't promote helmets(asking everyone here---not just Carol)? Why don't other NH clinicians promote them? Larry Leslie desmond does LibertyBelle AlythLong wrote: Many of the horse fall deaths have been experienced riders on a safe, bombproof pony/horse.  You only have to fall off and your head hit the kerbside or a stone......people with  brain protect it.  I'm afraid this is one instance that I think the complete opposite to P and L!!!  Of course the reason you fell off wasn't because the horse wasn't safe - it was because something unexpected happened!!! I agree. 90% of my falls have been on a horse over the age of 15 that was a total bomb proof beginner horse. They weren't unsafe, things just happen sometimes. cynthia peterson I think it is true, a Clinician doesn't want to advertise horses are dangerous. It is their selling point for you to have horses. Don't scare the paying public. And I think those old cowboy type just think falling off is part of life, get used to it and learn how not to. I doubt if Pat every hit the ground often (after his Rodeo career) That man can ride anything with no fear. Pat most certainly has a set costume he wears, even down to the chaps, hat, hobbles and rope on his horse, everytime. He couldn't even change his saddle to the Parelli saddle for years! I believe you are right on the vanity part. In fact, how many MEN ever wear helmets? Hmm, since Pat has not been without a wife or livein perment girlfriend since he was 18 (just out of HS) I take your comment on the strength of other things I have heard about his past... On the RFD TV shows over the years Caton was learning to ride when he was very balance challenged after his stroke. I personally cringed when he fell off many times (the kid is brave like his Dad) I wondered then why he didn't put a helmet on him. I mean, here was a "really need to wear a helmet" time. One time it was so bad, I thought WHY, Pat why!? coveredbridgefarm Niek wrote: coveredbridgefarm wrote: Carol wrote: Quote: You look at Parelli's mass-marketing blitz.  He made "natural horsemanship" the COOL thing to do.    They could just as easily make wearing helmets COOL too, and save hundreds of lives. So why do you think they didn't promote helmets(asking everyone here---not just Carol)? Why don't other NH clinicians promote them? Larry Leslie desmond does I think she not only promotes them, she requires them.  But she is a rare exception apparently.   And I had this thought this morning: If Parelli is irresponsible for not requiring or at least promoting helmets, especially after Linda's fall which resulted in broken ribs and a concussion, then how irresponsible is Buck Brannaman for not requiring or at least promoting helmets after his wife's fall resulted in more serious head injuries?   Hertha wrote: Quote: It is maybe related to the western riding 'image'.  We all know that Americans see 'image' as extremely important, especially the 'tough cowboy image'. Very important point, imo.  There is an incongruity, image wise, about a horse galloping across a meadow, mane flowing in the breeze, carrying a helmeted rider. You don't think so?  Try picturing The Lone Ranger wearing a helmet astride Silver, Roy Rogers in a helmet on Trigger, or a helmeted Marshall Dillon chasing a bad guy across the Kansas plains.   It's just not the same. It's not part of the image or part of the dream that attracts people to horses. But, that can change over time, slowly.   EDIT: Cynthia, good point about Caton. It's like these cowboys have a disdain for helmets. Larry ElaineC If you YouTube clinic footage for Buck Brannaman, and look in the background, you see many riders with cowboy hats, baseball hats, nothing on their head, AND riding helmets. He puts helmets on his kids - I've never seen a photo of his kids while they were young without helmets on. So I'd say he is much more pro-helmet than the Parelli's, who have as far as I can think never made their own kids/neices/nephews etc wear helmets. I can't think of any Parelli clinic footage where people are wearing helmets either, with the exception of one rider who was wearing an older style velvet hunt cap, in an old promo. I've been watching alot of Buck's dvd's lately, and he always states that he's showing what he does, and to work with what you're comfortable. Don't rush because you think you should be at a particular point because he is, and don't be afraid to try. I find him to be a very humble person, and a grateful person. My own trainer is a Ray Hunt protoge, rode with him for a long time, and he wears a helmet on every horse he's training, and on every ride outside the arena. The only time I've seen him not wearing a helmet is on his old steady QH, and he admits he probably should be wearing one. He also requires one for you to ride on his property or in his clinic. So its hard to say where the attitude started, but I think that the Parelli's are under more public scrutiny because they put themselves there, and because of silly statements like the ones in that letter. They could use that public presence to keep more people safe, and they choose not to. Me? I choose to wear a helmet. cynthia peterson Let alone the fact, Elaine, that of all the Clinicians mentioned, Parelli followers are probably the most unexperienced of them all. Those tend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and perhaps balance challenged too. I believe you are saying Buck strongly approves of young riders wearing a helmet. Young and old, physically challenged riders are at the most risk. Everybody is at a risk, but, at least start somewhere! Even Bronco Riders are starting to wear helmets. I wear a helmet so the grandkids will. I think that is what Pat should have done with Caton's case. Now, I wear my helmet all the time. I owe it to my loved ones if not myself. Still, it's a choice. Parelli teaches us how to be safe (get off the horse! etc.) It's just another "arrow" to keep safe. AlythLong The thing is Cynthia, sometimes there is no time to get off - as I discovered last summer. I always get off when things look like turning to custard. Last time it happened so fast my first thought as I was mid air was "oh s..t"!! From now on I will wear a body protector as well as my helmet and proper boots. Alyth Hertha I'm sure I would still love the Lone Ranger and Tonto and Zorro if they decide to wear helmets.     Also Roy Rogers and Dale Evans and Hopalong Cassidy.  Not to mention the blokes on the Ponderosa.   I'm sure I would still love Pat Parelli and Linda and Buck and all those guys too, were they to morph into wearing helmets whenever on horseback. I've just read a book that advocates wearing them for ground work in case your horse bongs you on the head or trips you up - I feel I can't quite go there - obviously they haven't learned Water Hole Rituals or basic ground skills --- that's a threshold for me, wearing a helmet on the ground. becdubie And John Wayne...... AlythLong LOL re John Wayne!! Actually it might have been a good idea to wear a helmet when I was running backwards getting Spider to draw to me. Some silly idiot had left some jump rails lying around and I went straight down flat!! Luckily the arena had good soft footing - or is that heading???!!!! Alyth sarah I get my littlest kids to wear a helmet when they work on the ground with their ponies. At least until I know that they know where to be and when, and how to get a horse out of their space when they need to. Also, all clinicians that I have worked with ask you to sign a form saying that if you don't wear a helmet they are not liable for your injuries or death. It is special clause. While I support a person's right to choose whether they wear a helmet or not, even the clinicians, and their insurance companies, know that horses are a risky business and that preventable injuries can arise from not wearing a helmet. Pyrgirl sarah wrote: even the clinicians, and their insurance companies, know that horses are a risky business and that preventable injuries can arise from not wearing a helmet. There. Well said. That's a good bottom line. PasoBaby_CarolU Kind of interesting, but this is VERY pervasive in our society. I was watching "Criminal Minds" last night and as they broke into a house after a bad guy, noticed that while all the SWAT team wore helmets, NONE of the 'stars' did. Are they somehow invincible? I've also noticed this with medical dramas and coroner shows, no filter masks on the face (you wouldn't be able to see their expression as they talk), yet those little paper masks are the first line of biological protection. I think all this sends a subliminal message that safety equipment isn't "cool." In the old film days, people didn't wear safety equipment because there wasn't any. 4theloveofjake Pasobaby_CarolU said : I think all this sends a subliminal message that safety equipment isn't "cool." I think that is the whole enchilada. bit There is an apparent lack of savvy just wearing protection. There is a lack of sensation and perception, according to Pat and Linda. I get this. But just like, yep I'm gonna go there, condoms, is it worth dying for? whisperingwindfarms Ya'll need to quit talking about Roy.  Everyone knows superheroes don't need no crash helmets! 4theloveofjake Ppphhfff ! What balance and poise he has !!! Ride 'em Roy ! It's About The Horse Forum Index -> Horse General Chat Page 1 of 1 || « Horse memory? » Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register . Dec 16, 2010, 11:06am Kiger Mustangs :: Education Center :: Equine Behavior :: Horse memory? Page 1 of 2 » Jump to page 0 && (document.getElementById('pageNo1')).value Go Author Topic: Horse memory? (Read 259 times) angelsdream Alpha Horse member is offline Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 1,044 Location: Georgia Horse memory? « Thread Started on Jan 7, 2009, 8:56am » I was thinking of this and thought I'd get other's opinions. Do horse's remember? Example: say the horse I raised and sold as a 4 year old, do you think she would remember me if I saw her? And do you think they recognize and can distinguish between all of us? I just wonder how they think and recognize..... Link to Post - Back to Top Logged barbhorses Yearling member is offline "Well behaved women seldom make history" Joined: May 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 331 Location: Southern California Re: Horse memory? « Reply #1 on Jan 7, 2009, 10:23am » Horses do remember. Otherwise, people wouldn't be able to have a finished horses and would have to start from scratch everyday because they didn't remember the lessons from yesterday. You also wouldn't be able to have those kinds of horses where they sit in a pasture for a few years and then just go and saddle them up and they ride like they were ridden only yesterday. The difference in memory of animals and people(imo) is that you wont be able to punish or praise an animal say 5 min (its actually quite a bit less than that) after they have done something. You cannot go up to your horse a week after he kicked in a panel on the shed or got into the feed bin and tell him how bad he is. He will look at you like wtf is your problem lady?? lol He will not associate the praise or correction with what he did unless it is immediately done after the deed. As far as memory of people, other animals and lessons learned etc., you bet they remember! « Last Edit: Jan 7, 2009, 10:24am by barbhorses » Link to Post - Back to Top Logged La Victoria 1996 grulla mare - the last of the California Spanish stock. www.spanishsulphurs.blogspot.com www.spanishsulphurs.org - Sulphur info. site angelsdream Alpha Horse member is offline Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 1,044 Location: Georgia Re: Horse memory? « Reply #2 on Jan 7, 2009, 6:34pm » Yes I understand the memory part when it comes to training, kigers have a wonderful mind and really remember there training. I was talking in general about them distinquishing between us, and other horses? If they remember there owners (by smell, or what) Just curious, as Shane went out to catch Lakota the other day and she ran from him, but when I went out to get her, she didn't move, I walked right up to her. So wondering how they know its us, how do they see? And I believe the punishment when it comes to horses is the 3 second rule, right? after 3 seconds, you can't touch them because they won't know what they did wrong. Man, it would be nice to forget that quickly when someone hurt us or wronged us!! haha and to be able to move on like horses do. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged fantasykiger Alpha Horse member is offline Happy Holidays! Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 2,000 Location: Central Oregon Re: Horse memory? « Reply #3 on Jan 7, 2009, 7:23pm » I wonder if it is like what Ceasar describes with dogs they remember, but they live in the moment, not the past. Many humans live in the past, with emotions such as guilt and regret. So that is why is is important to discipline then for a wrong doing right at the moment they do it, then move on like no big deal. Although I have come across the occassional horse that has very strong opinions. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged barbhorses Yearling member is offline "Well behaved women seldom make history" Joined: May 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 331 Location: Southern California Re: Horse memory? « Reply #4 on Jan 7, 2009, 8:29pm » Yea, they do remember. I was reading a book where a horse really didn't like this guy and when he smelled him or saw him now matter how long he hadn't seen or smelled him the horse's reaction was the same. Pinned ears, and rearing. Not a happy horse. If you think about it, if a horse can remember his training, why wouldn't he also be able to remember friends or enemies? Horses is a 3 second rule. Dogs are 5 seconds. Not sure if you have noticed with Ceasar, but his techniques center around surprise and very dominant body language. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged La Victoria 1996 grulla mare - the last of the California Spanish stock. www.spanishsulphurs.blogspot.com www.spanishsulphurs.org - Sulphur info. site kigerca New Born member is offline Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 18 Location: Sacramento, CA Re: Horse memory? « Reply #5 on Jan 7, 2009, 8:35pm » Horses have excellent memories, (often for experiences we don't want them to remember). especially when young or training has just started, they try to remember and repeat every thing. As they age they become more resilient to our mistakes. Based on your example of catching horses that can be a different subject them memory. Often that is the person's body language more then smell or sight recognition. A person who understands proper body language could walk in a pasture and catch a horse they have never seen before when the owner cannot. OR A horse might recognize familiar or comfortable body language more then the smell or sight. Although a horse's sight and smell is about 8X better then ours. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged Sue Kigers de los Californios You cannot become who you are meant to be, by remaining who you are. angelsdream Alpha Horse member is offline Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 1,044 Location: Georgia Re: Horse memory? « Reply #6 on Jan 7, 2009, 9:33pm » Yes, that all makes sense. Im always talking to lakota as im walking up to her, so it could be my voice also. So I guess it would be smell that horses distinquish other horses from - since you could have the same color horses in a herd, it would have to be smell?? Right? I do notice when horses check you out, they are always sniffing of you. I hear them take deep breaths. mmmmm, this is very interesting. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged fantasykiger Alpha Horse member is offline Happy Holidays! Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 2,000 Location: Central Oregon Re: Horse memory? « Reply #7 on Jan 7, 2009, 10:19pm » I am lazy so I call my horses and they come to me (most of the time ), in a herd of horses they all remember their own individual names. I am sure smell is very important to horses, which makes a windy day all the more stimulating. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged desperatehorsewife Herd Member member is offline Join the American Mustang and Burro Club! Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 831 Re: Horse memory? « Reply #8 on Jan 7, 2009, 11:39pm » Years ago I had a horse who for a while was kept at my folks' place. When I moved him to another barn we one day came across my mom's old gelding. It'd been 4 years since they'd seen each other, but they immediately knew each other, whinnying across the parking lot at each other. I'm not sure they dwell on relationships like we do, and I'm not one to necessarily believe they are grateful towards people for 'rescuing' them from dire situations, but they certainly do remember those they like and those they dislike, even if the 'why' isn't clear in their minds. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged Wild Horse Education Center http://mustangU.blogspot.com National Adoption Day September 26 http://adoptalivinglegend.blogspot.com Michelle Clarke Administrator member is offline Rancho Bayo Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,415 Location: Central Texas Re: Horse memory? « Reply #9 on Jan 9, 2009, 8:22pm » In my experience, I have found them to have remarkable memories. It happens to Eric alot when he travels and gives a clinic with repeat horses...they perk right up and do their best to get over to him to be loved on. My first Kiger would pin his ears and sulk in the corner of his stall when his previous owner would visit - just the sound of his footsteps hitting the concrete aisle would turn his nostrils up and flatten his ears. The whole time I had him, he had no tolerance for anyone in a baseball cap; sometimes would lunge at them even. Parelli says they have flashbacks - a smell, sound, certain touch or situation will spark a memory, and send them right into that last behavior they had experienced. We have seen that on alot of abused horses, but also on horses that were started wrong. Tiffany....our horses are the same! We'll have a whole group of weanlings/yearlings (10 or so) and open the gate and call one. It still amazes me that they walk right up - even past the alpha horses because they know I won't let anyone chase them - and come right in. Sometimes they look like they are so privaleged, their eyes get big and they perk up like "who, me?", it is so funny! Link to Post - Back to Top Logged Don't retreat...reload. 1Kiger New Born member is offline Maddie Joined: Jul 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 19 Location: Palo Alto, CA Re: Horse memory? « Reply #10 on Jan 19, 2009, 7:14pm » I'm always fascinated by horse behavior, and animal behavior in general. My mare, Maddie, has a long memory. The trainer re-educating her this last summer was amazed (and sometimes dismayed) at how well she remembered everything. Of course I suspect it is a mustang trait. And it is true about flashbacks, she had a lot of them, and the behavior that they triggered was dangerous, including bolting and panic attacks. I don't believe she was abused, but her fears certainly weren't addressed correctly. As far as her personality goes ... My mare can be pretty hot blooded, with strong flight tendencies. she's highly skeptical and, as with many mustangs, it takes a long time to earn her trust. She is definitely right brained on the Parelli horsenality chart. She is nothing like the horses I've ridden before, which were mostly quarter horses. It's been truly a learning experience. I've learned to take it slow and let her think when she needs to. While in rehab training, once she understood that we were trying to help, she was great... and now she is progressing incredibly well, with fewer and fewer flashbacks that trigger "psychedelic" moments, as the trainer called them. What have you all noticed about Kiger behavior traits? Are there tendencies toward certain behaviors that have been noted within certain bloodlines or in general? Link to Post - Back to Top Logged angelsdream Alpha Horse member is offline Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 1,044 Location: Georgia Re: Horse memory? « Reply #11 on Jan 20, 2009, 9:51am » Hi 1Kiger - it sounds like Maddie is coming along nicely. What a great job you've done to get her this far and to take on the task. That's very hard and takes lots of time to earn trust and lots and lots of patience to deal with a flighty horse. I've had my experience with that. As far as kiger behavior - Ive noticed they are very curious, which is a great thing. Also they are friendly and love to be in the mix of things. I saw it in the 3 kiger's Ive been around. Which I believe is what attracts everyone to kigers. Along with there brain of course. Bella, my filly, is starting to get very curious. She has started trying to chew on everything and check it all out. 1st she started with my jacket a week ago, she wasnt quiet sure what it was, so she nibbled on it while I had my back turned talking, which is a no -no to me. that just opens up a big can of worms...last night she was chewing on the chain that locks the barn gate..so her brain is starting to churn and her personality is starting to come out. She has taken a shine to the son of the lady where I keep my horses. and he is NOT a horse boy, only goes to the pasture when he HAS to, he's 19, college kid and has never liked horses...so not sure what bella is up to..ha Lakota - well she's the image of a kiger that I think everyone dreams of. She's the total package, as far as what I am looking for, brains, personality, training ability (very willing) and loads of personality I truly love the kiger breed for all these traits. Is Maddie your 1st kiger? Do you see the same similar traits? Link to Post - Back to Top Logged stlkigers Herd Member member is offline Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 531 Re: Horse memory? « Reply #12 on Jan 20, 2009, 8:12pm » Kiger behavior....Welll I have had 4 kigers...A freezebranded mare(whom I believe was cowboyed a bit) and her 2 colts (full brothers to eachother), and now another freezebranded colt....The mare acted like an abused horse with a HUGE fear of ropes; nothing like I've ever seen in any other BLM mustang I've owned....Her colts were both fairly hot....My new colt (Heck I say new but got him in 2007) is AWESOMELY laid back....The commonality in all that I see is exactly what Bettye Roberts(other board/Okie Kigers) told me about Kigers.....Keep them learning, they are smart and can get bored easily.....Just my 2 cents.... Angela Link to Post - Back to Top Logged 1Kiger New Born member is offline Maddie Joined: Jul 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 19 Location: Palo Alto, CA Re: Horse memory? « Reply #13 on Jan 20, 2009, 9:20pm » Hi Angelsdream, I know I'm going to end up writing a book here, because this has been such an odyssey. Your comment on brains, personality and training ability were exactly why I was interested in Kigers. Well, ok, they are striking animals too. I bought Maddie because I had met a couple of Kigers back in the 90's and loved their willingness and kind behavior so I'd been wanting to adopt one since then. But I already had my good old boy, Rio, who I must say has been the best partner I've ever had, and was perfect for my Mounted Search and Rescue activities. When my QH gelding became too lame to ride (navicular) 3 years ago, I started looking in earnest for a Kiger, thinking a Kiger would be a great horse for MSAR. Meanwhile though, we had sold off our family "farm" where we used to keep our horses, and I was boarding out, so I no longer had the facilities to adopt a mustang off the range. I had to go looking for a domesticated Kiger, or at least one that had training. There were a whole lot for sale about 2 years ago, but only a couple had any training under saddle. Maddie was one of them... she was advertised with 60 days training and trail experience (turns out it was one time). Little did I know how much work I had ahead of me. This horse was the most fearful little filly (she was 4) I'd ever met. She had been bred domestically, but was highly skeptical of anything to do with a person and the common tools of the trade, like saddles. It took 3 months (working 5 days a week with her) before she stopped sidling away from me when I walked up to her, and I know how to move passively around horses. It took just as long before she could look at me with both eyes. She was scared of the saddle and it took a year before she'd stop flinching when I put it on her... though even now she has moments. I met the young woman who had her before me, and I don't think she was abused, but it was clear to me her fears weren't addressed properly. She was extremely unconfident and quick to panic. I spent a year ground working her to try and build her confidence. I certainly became a better horsewoman, watching all the DVDs by Anderson and Parelli, & going to natural horsemanship clinics when I could afford them, I did everything I could to help her, but I still didn't feel she was safe... it was a gut feeling, that I trust since I've been riding since I was a toddler. I finally was losing my confidence and actually fell into a fear cycle, which I had never experienced before, though the fears were not unreasonable. This is a horse that ran straight through barbed wire fences when bolting, & would fly into a panic if somebody looked at her wrong. She was absolutely terrified of ropes around and behind her. As much as I was afraid she'd hurt me, I was more afraid she'd hurt herself and other people. I was lucky on a couple of occasions that she didn't seriously injure herself. Needless to say her behavior patterns were way beyond my ability to resolve. A couple of trainers had said she was still too dangerous to ride, after I had spent a year of working with her. I sent her out to one trainer for a month who never got on her because she was still "not safe." It became a very emotional time for me, as I don't give up on horses easily, and I was looking at having to sell her. I knew if I sold her to someone, as beautiful as she is, there was a good chance she'd end up at a feedlot auction, on the other hand I'm not wealthy and can't afford a pasture ornament when I was already supporting my retired QH. One day I last summer, I stumbled across an ad from a trainer on Craigslist. I would normally never send a horse to a trainer that I hadn't researched, but my intuition was telling me to call this woman. Turns out to be one of the best calls I made. Jodie made this mare her mission. Jodie was horrified at her behavior. Maddie completely fell apart when I left her at their ranch. She went into total fear mode. It took all of three months of re-education and rebuilding her foundation, 7 days a week, before Maddie finally understood that we are not here to kill her. This was last summer. She came home a changed horse, more trusting and relaxed. That's not to say she doesn't lose confidence still, but she doesn't panic and bolt like she did. She can now actually stop and look and think. I'm very careful to let her think her way through anything new. All I can say is God bless that trainer. And I'm loving riding my girl now. One of the things I've always liked most about her, is her try. She is also one of the most sensitive horses I've been around. It is wonderful. She may never make a perfect patrol horse, as was Rio, but she'll have some great Search and Rescue abilities he doesn't have, like sensitivity to her surroundings, better scent detection. So it'll be a trade off, but one I can be happy with. I'm going to introduce myself and Maddie properly on the General Board and will attach some photos of her. Thanks for responding to my post... hope I haven't